'driver license and social security number'

DJ (65.254.200.19) -

Under federal mandate, state DMV's are now refusing to issue or renew a driver license unless one provides their social security number and I object. This expanded use of the SSN intrudes into one's privacy and jeopardizes one's credit, personal safety and financial security. There is an increased potential for abuse by government. Another concern is that these federal standards are being imposed in an area which has always been under state control, creating a de facto national ID.

Advice or a referral to a source of help will be most appreciated as I face a deadline and want to avoid legal complications. I will consider filing a religious objection, moving my residence, rescinding my SSN, or any other legal tactic. My thanks for any help, information, or referrals.

Sincerely,

DJ

Comment #1 Ed (152.163.35.50) -

Very good question, DJ.

I know this has been a concern to people for at least 20 years. There is lots of talk, but the only thing that seems to happen is that your SSN gets used for more and more things.

Eventually some people stop using it. For example, the FAA used to use it for Pilots identified and are now changing to a different number.

A lot of people need to follow the FAA's lead and of course if you never start using the SSN for ID purposes you never have any troubles from it and never have the expense and hassle of changing to a different system like the FAA is.

"We now issue all original airmen certificates with a unique certificate number. The Airmen Certification Branch no longer assigns your Social Security Number (SSN) as your certificate number. If your certificate uses your SSN as the certificate number we will continue to issue you that number unless you request a unique number."

Of course the FAA should change the certificate numbers whether someone makes the request or not.

• FAA SSN Change

Comment #2 MediaMike (68.230.35.110) -

I no longer have a SSN. In 1999, I gave the card and number back to its rightful owner, the SSA. I sent the affidavits to the several pertinent departments of the federal government as well.

When the "driver's license" I foolishly renewed in 1994 expires in 2018, I will not be getting another one. (Of course who will be driving after 2012 anyway?)

It is my right to travel freely using the method customary in the culture where I'm living.

MediaMike, Phoenix

Comment #3 Elroy from New York -

It is a losing battle people have tried fighting for decades.

Comment #4 PokerPrincess from Hogstown, The Universe -

Well, in Canada it is a lot easier to NOT give our your SIN Social Insurance Number. The only people that can legal ask for it are financial institutions or your employer.

Anyone else who requests it can take the high road. They have absolutely no legal right at all to request this information from you.

And when you pay for things on line a lot of sites (poker sites mainly) request your passport number and your SIN and your driver's license in order for them to return your funds. The only way around this is by using someone like FirePay, PayPal and Neteller. These sites will accept that you have already been verified and don't need anything further.

Comment #5 Elroy from New York -

A lot of countries in Central and South America have national ID systems that use a "Cedula" and "Cedula Number". Everyone asks for that number.

You don't hear the same stories about ID theft like you do with SSNs in the USA. What's the difference?

Comment #6 Suzie from Washington DC -

My father in law seems to think that in the future everyone is going to have some kind of code within their bodies or on their bodies. I guess he is thinking like a chip under the skin or some kind of bar code. Something no one can steal. It is crazy that it would have to come to something like that.

Comment #7 snowbird (1) from The North -

I don't like the fact that are SS# is floating around out there either, but I guess thats our goverment at it's finest, I think they are doing that so they can try to keep track of terrorist. I like the Cedula idea that Elroy from NY mentioned.

Comment #8 imaginarydivabc from vancouver, bc -

It's a good thing that I live in canada. Like PokerPrincess, anyone who asks can take the high road out. I mean, I can almost see it having a legit reason for your drivers license. US not only is trying to big brother terrorists, but also has a lot of illegal aliens living there.

Comment #9 itsmrsjonesy from * -

It seems to me that we are being expected to use our social security numbers on more and more and I myself am really not all that comfortable with that. There are plenty of ways to identify people without using their social security number.

Comment #10 peekaboo from from my desk! -

I have to agree! My bank has a password I use and our CC's have those 3 digit codes. Problem is, how does that make it any different than using your SS#. Once we stop having to provide that, our identity can be stolen using the other ways.

Comment #11 Elroy from New York -

The difference is that by using your SSN (or another COMMON) number someone who gets into one thing gets into EVERYTHING.

If there was not a common identifier across all your things, it would be much more difficult to steal your identity as there would be 10 or 20 things to steal not just one.

If your SSN is emblazoned across your drivers lincense and someone gets your drivers license (or sees it) then they have the key to your entire life! Why should your drivers license open the door to your finances?

Comment #12 snowbird (1) from The North -

I don't think I could remember all the different ID's I would have to use in order to keep my ID from being stolen. I have a a hard enough time remembering what to get a the store without having to write it down! LOL

Comment #13 DJ (65.254.200.19) -

Reply to comment #2 There is no formal, legal procedure recognized by the SSA to revoke or rescind the SSN and it is difficult to find legitimate legal assistance with this process. Despite "opting out" one is still required to pay into the system if one is employed, and this includes even the Amish who have a long established history of not participating. Besides, opting out of the Social Security system is a drastic measures which does not address the problem-when one now applies for a driver license, it will be denied if a SSN is not provided- no exceptions for US citizens.

It is a popular misconception that one has the "right to travel" ie the right to drive an automobile. Many state courts have ruled to the contrary. Repeated violations will result in imprisonment-no exceptions. DJ

Comment #14 Linda: Forde (74.104.148.213) -

I want to give my drives license and Social Insurance Card back to its rightful owners. I do not want to be part of their scam in making us legal entity owners of the name which they deceptively inscribed upon us in order for us to pay back the debt which the Gov't left upon our shoulders after the fall of the bankrupt corporate government.

If anyone knows the procedure for Canadians, please let me know.

Linda

Ontario

Comment #15 pete hansel (71.74.138.43) -

Can you obtain a social security via mail? thanks

Comment #16 PATRICK from HOUSTON, TEXAS -

Here in Texas, I lost my driver’s license. When I went into renew or replace it I had to give both of my thumb prints. As far as I know they are not yet asking for our social security number. I feel like if we have to give our ss# it puts us at risk for having our identity stolen. Let’s face it the people down at your local drivers license office are not always honest!!

Comment #17 Olivia from Online -

I took my social security number off of my driver's license about 8 years ago. Back then when it was issued, it was customary to just use your social. After a friend of ours had her purse stolen, I quickly changed it. It's amazing how much damage you can do if you steal a person's ssn.

Comment #18 Keter from the garage door -

Interesting that in countries like the UK there is no such concept as a Social Security No. or real ID of any type. They simply use their photo drivers licenses as picture ID when required to show it. They seem to manage fine without it and the country hasn't collapsed (although some may think otherwise with the way Britain is going these days, LOL).

Comment #19 Jenna from A highly secure location -

I hate giving out my SSN to anybody and I am very careful about doing so, but I think this is a losing battle. To get ahead you need to comply with some of these things whether you like it or not and they are not going to change their policy just because you decide to stop driving or to take some other action.

Comment #20 Tara from Somewhere cold -

Although everyone wants to stop using their SS # for everything, it is still "out there". Any time you call about medical benefits or anything like that, your SS # is given. Who's to say that the cust svc rep isn't taking all the info down?

Comment #21 Conyngham from the windy city -

What is the situation in Canada? Is there a similar Social Security setup to this country or do they follow the British system where there is no real form of ID number other than a passport or driver's license?

Comment #22 VN Vet_71 (75.70.255.46) -

As a youngster, I recall my grandmother complaining about the abuse of the SSAN. She said that the Fed Gov't assured everyone that it was a private number, not for ID. It was for accessing a personal account that people paid into to help them at retirement. That all changed when Social Security became mandatory for everyone and a tax was instituted rather than voluntary contributions.

I agree that travel is an unalienable right. Driver's Licenses don't prove that one has the ability to safely operate a vehicle (witness: travel on any highway and count the number of aggressive, unsafe driver's hazarding everyone else.) DL's are just another revenue collection scheme, along with vehicle plates.

The only persons/vehicles that require licensing are those using public streets and highways for commercial ventures.

I believe it's time for everyone to wise up and throw off the shackles of authoritariansim or we'll be just like Orwell's citizens in "1984" or worse

Comment #23 DJ (65.254.200.19) -

Thanks everybody for your interest in my and our shared dilemma, but I am getting no closer to a solution and am now in legal jeopardy. Allow me to make a few short points on your posts:

post #6 "chip on body" The Real ID Act which has been passed by the US Congress will require a biometric identifier associated with ones ID. This is more threatening than chip as it makes "tracking" all activities of an individual permanent and foolproof making privacy impossible and those embarassing mistakes from your past available for the world's scrutiny.

posts #1 and #9 Recent changes, including Title 42 US Code Sec. 666 a 13 make the use of the SSN mandatory more often, including fishing/hunting licenses, vehicle registration, etc.

post #17 Even though SSN is not printed on the license, it is still in the DMV system and the recent record thefts from the VA, credit card companies, and other data companies reveals the vulnerability of information storage, the foolishness of having too much in any one place, and the stupidity of a universal identifying number.

post #22 I agree with you in theory, but several state courts have ruled that one does not have a right to drive a vehicle on the public highways.

Thanks for your observations and please post if you hear of any practical solution to this problem

Comment #24 david (64.234.4.86) -

My neighbor knew my drive license informaion. Does it matter if the drive license information is disclosed to others?

Comment #25 Louise (66.25.200.64) -

In Texas, we are required to give our social security number and thumb prints or we cannot renew our driver's license. That has been required for several years now. We even have to give our social security numbers to register our cars now. Soon Big Brother will know everything we do right down to what we eat. If they can figure out a way to get into our thoughts, they will do it.

Comment #26 ~Z~ (70.249.145.210) -

It's insane. I've lost my driver's licence and do not know my SSN, but to renew your license you must know your SSN, to get your SSN you have to have a driver's license. ARRRRRGH!

Comment #27 Deb (205.188.116.137) -

Re having to give your social security number for a driver's license: If you are stopped for, say speeding, and the officer runs a check (which I think they do routinely), does this give him/her access to your social security number? That would be really worrying.

Comment #28 vettester (70.246.247.63) -

Your right to contract is something they will never refuse you. All the states are corporations formed under the federal corporation, and have their own laws. If you title, tag and and get a driver's license you accept the contract and agree to play by their rules.

Go to your states web site and look for;

8-270. Effect of noncompliance. The operation of a vehicle in this state without complying with the provisions of this act shall not be considered as operating the same unlawfully or in violation of law so as to affect the validity of any contract or policy of liability insurance or indemnity against liability for personal injuries or damages to property, or fire, theft or collision insurance carried on such vehicle.

Comment #29 Rayne (70.251.107.10) - Tue May 6 05:47:40 2008

DJ and anyone willing to listen.

First and foremost a "Driver license" is for those who get paid to operate a "Motor Vehicle."

If you are not being paid to "Drive" you do not need a license.

Without getting into the legal definitions and citing a number of Supreme Court cases in addition to the US Constitution. Traveling is a right on public roads is a right. Rulings at the state level can not overturn any ruling from a higher court. Supreme Court of _______ is not going to be higher than the Federal Supreme Court.

Traveling is a right granted by the US Constitution. It becomes a priviledge when a given individual earns his or her living from "Driving." (IE: Taxi Cab drivers, truckers, couriers, etc.)

Comment #30 Rayne (70.251.107.10) - Tue May 6 05:52:51 2008

About the SSN the SSA has openly admitted to the fact that there are no forms to fill out to get out of the system. The only way to do it is stop saying and or writting down the number.

Furthermore the SSA has openly admitted that having a SSN is not required to work or live within any of the 50 states.

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